Forum:Speculation and Thoughts Regarding Thorn
The following material was removed from the talk page for the article about Thorn, as it had nothing to do with the article itself: Speculations Argument with Murtagh It is implied at the end of Eldest that Murtagh and either Thorn or Galbatorix argued over, or at least discussed, whether or not to allow Eragon and Saphira to escape. After Eragon reasoned with Murtagh, neither he nor Thorn spoke for a full minute, plenty of time for a brief conversation. It is possible that either Thorn or Murtagh wanted to capture Eragon and take him to Galbatorix, and the other persuaded them not to. Either way, the result was the same; Murtagh and Thorn released Eragon and Saphira. If there was an argument, there are two possibilities. The first, and most popular possibility, is that Thorn persuaded Murtagh to release Eragon and Saphira for the sake of the Varden, and Murtagh did, because Thorn told him to. The second, a less popular but equally likely theory, is that Murtagh decided to release Eragon, and Thorn tried and failed to convince him otherwise. If there wasn't an argument, then Thorn probably left the decision to Murtagh, and the minute that passed was merely Murtagh thinking about it by himself. Another possibility is that both Murtagh & Thorn wanted to release Eragon and Saphira and were searching for a loophole in their oaths or were concerned about the consequences of their actions. It was probably because of Thorn that Murtagh let Eragon and Saphira go, even though Eragon severely injured Thorn. This would most likely be the right reason because Thorn could see that if he and Murtagh did capture Eragon and Saphira there would be no way for them to ever escape Galbatorix's clutches.THORN001 13:26, March 31, 2011 (UTC) Debate over releasing Eragon and Saphira It is highly possible that Thorn convinced Murtagh to release Eragon and Saphira. Murtagh said to Eragon, right before he withdrew into himself, "It would be so easy to take you back to Urû'baen ... (and) you just tried to kill me." He seemed prepared to take Eragon into custody, and his face was expressionless, grim. However, after the minute, he suddenly announced he would let Eragon go. This would also fit in with Thorn's later behavior: during Brisingr, Murtagh and Thorn communicated briefly, and Murtagh suddenly became much more willing to listen to Eragon. This could possibly be because Thorn urged him to listen. However, a grave point against this thought is that, argument or not, Murtagh waited a whole minute after hearing Eragon's final pleas, plenty of time for him to think things over and change his mind. There are some definite points that suggest Thorn was actually in favor of capturing Eragon and Saphira. It calls into question Thorn's motives; though he seems to hate being forced to do Galbatorix's will, he was raised in the capital, under Galbatorix and Murtagh,(though he was probably raised mostly by Murtagh, and trained mostly by Shruikan) and because he is so young, he would know little of the outside world beyond what he had been taught until he gains more experience. It seems probable that Galbatorix would instill in Thorn the idea that the Varden is evil, and not to be helped, reducing the chances that Thorn would do anything for their sake, except as intentional defiance to Galbatorix. A possible counter-argument is that through Murtagh, Thorn may have learned good things about the world and the Varden, thus allowing him to make decisions that are not dictated by Galbatorix's dogma. However, this also calls into question why Murtagh would teach Thorn that the Varden were good and the Empire was evil, as evidence both before and after he became a Rider makes clear he does not believe these things himself. In the chapter, "Inheritance", Murtagh states that Galbatorix is not evil and the elves are cowards and fools, (in response to Eragon's ungratefulness and selfishness). And during the chapter "Hunting for Answers" Murtagh states that the Empire is a sound system that should not be overthrown, and the Varden's beliefs and actions are corrupt and fanatical. The thought of Murtagh being the very opponent against Thorn's suggestion to let Eragon almost completely invalidates the thought that Murtagh taught Thorn things that led him to arguing for Eragon and Saphira to be released. There is also the question of Thorn's feelings towards Eragon. Just minutes before Murtagh and Thorn decided his fate, Eragon slashed open Thorn's leg, causing him to roar in agony. After he landed, Thorn took a moment to stop and snarl at Eragon. In the face of this evidence, it is strange, to say the least, that Thorn would argue with his rider in favor of freeing Eragon, knowing full well that they would likely to be punished by Galbatorix for their act of mercy. It is also possible, but less likely, that Murtagh made the decision himself. Eragon frequently made decisions disregarding Saphira's advice(particularly in the chapter A Sorceress, a Snake, and a Scroll), or without getting her opinion at all. Murtagh, who is even stronger willed then Eragon, likely would do some things without his dragon's approval as well. However, against this theory is that it doesn't make sense for Thorn to be a few meters away and make no effort to have a voice in Murtagh's decision. It is difficult to determine the answer to this, as Thorn as not yet spoken and no evidence whatsoever has been presented that would lend weight to either side. Therefore, until Book IV is published, speculation over Thorn's motives are little more than personnel opinion, and both theories of Thorn's role in the argument are more-or-less equally likely. It is clear however, that whatever his role in the argument, Thorn desires freedom. Good or Evil? It has been debated among fans whether Thorn was good or evil. Thorn served the Empire, but the books hinted that he did not like serving Galbatorix and wished to be free. However, as he has not yet spoken, and his actual conversations with Murtagh remain a mystery, his moral standing has not yet been confirmed. However, it seemed that Thorn was not malignant or sadistic. Whether he was loyal to the Empire or hated it with a vengeance, he had no choice in the matter. Overall, he was most likely good. (Another point that should be raised is that Thorn's bond with Murtagh was true and pure like Eragon's bond with Saphira and unlike the bond between Galbatorix and Shruikan). Thorn was similar to Murtagh in that they both have done the best they could with the circumstances they were given. Thorn hatched into bondage. Murtagh, it appeared, was never free from Galbatorix. They were not the masters of their lives, like Eragon and Saphira. Thorn may not be evil himself as Murtagh said they were doing the best they can be, however Galbatorix may have Thorns Eldunarí so if Thorn is evil it may not have been his will since Galbatorix had probably broken into his mind at one point during his life. How is he so big? Thorn has grown much faster than Saphira has ever since they both hatched. Saphira grew at a natural pace compared with Thorn who has grown much faster since he hatched for Murtagh shortly after the Battle Under Farthen Dûr in Tronjheim. As revealed by Arya, Thorn's growth rate was most likely enhanced by Galbatorix's magic to make him a competitor against Saphira. This should be considered the most likely answer at this point, but it is possible there is another answer. The Eldunarí Galbatorix supplied may have something to do with it. Or maybe Shruikan is possessing Thorn and he has grown because of it. His unnatural strength may be because of Shruikan's possession of him. When Murtagh and Thorn entered into battle with Eragon and Saphira for the second time Thorn was much bigger than he should have been for a dragon of his age. (It is not precise on his age.) Saphira comments during this battle that Thorn had grown another four feet in the two weeks since their last battle. A less likely idea that many fans have speculated on is that Thorn may have hatched earlier and Murtagh may have been a Dragon Rider when he met Eragon at first. It was not stated how big Thorn was in his battle with Oromis and Glaedr, but if he continues to grow at his pace then he might grow to be much bigger than Saphira. We do not yet know all of the consequences that Thorn's accelerated growth will have on him. Speculated Romance While some fans assume that the green dragon will be Saphira's mate, other fans strongly suggest that it is also likely that Thorn may become Saphira's mate. Some fans believe that Thorn is the perfect mate for Saphira since, he is the only dragon close to her age. It may also be possible that Thorn may leave Alagaësia with Eragon, Arya and Saphira with or without Murtagh. It is implied at that if Thorn and Saphira were to become mates then, the war may end faster resulting in the Empire betraying Galbatorix. There is also a possibility that if there would be a heart to heart scene between Thorn and Saphira in Book 4, Thorn would tell Saphira the truth and show her images of him and Murtagh being tortured and Thorn would probably tell Saphira that he was actually trying to save her and everyone else. If this happens, then Saphira would be more inclined to admire Thorn for his act of courage and bravery against Galbatorix. Thorn and Saphira may have an offspring (which may turn out to be violet). It may also breed with the green dragon as Thorn and Saphira won't be present in Alagaësia anymore. This could also help further the relationship between Eragon and Arya, including Murtagh and Nasuada. I doubt that Thorn and Saphira would mate as Saphira only said that she feels pity for Thorn and nothing more.THORN001 13:27, March 31, 2011 (UTC) Thorn + Saphira?=purple dragon? Should it be speculated that Saphira and Thorn would be mates? I mean, it says in the article that they are almost of the same age, but Saphira is most indefinitely not the same age as him. Saphira hatched at a much earlier time obviously, otherwise Murtagh would have the Gedwey Ignasia emblazoned on his hand. Therefore, Saphira would consider Thorn to be a hatchling and would not mate. Another problem is that Murtagh and Eragon would perhaps not be too comfortable with the feelings that the Dragons would be unknowingly sending to their Riders. Just thoughts. Tyg13 00:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Thorn's Rider: I think Saphira would accept him for who he is. If he turned good then, she would find him to be so special. There is no way she would be so selfish and cruel to him for his age. Just because he grew unnaturally, he's still a dragon and he's still himself. If they become friendly to each other in the next book, it's likely she may fall for him, without caring about his unnatural growth. I also have to disagree because, even if they fall in love, it won't actually affect their Riders. Eragon is already in love with Arya and Murtagh is already in love with Nasuada so, it would not matter. They could have a daughter (which may turn out be violet) and let her mate with the unhatched green dragon, and I see no problem with that. The hatchling stuff seems a little exaggerated. They are, after all, only a few months apart. Glaedr considered Saphira a hatchling because he was an elder when Galbatorix began his conquest of the Riders. I don't think a year or two would matter to such a long-lived race. Also, is it possible that maybe his... uh? ... sexual prowess has been diminished by his rapid growth? Murtagh makes it clear that Galbatorix wants Saphira to mate with the green egg, as if excluding the possibility of Thorn. SwimKid09 00:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC) he could use what brom used to cover up his gedway ignasia. but where would his dragon be? Lotti95 06:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC) Someone said, "Another problem is that Murtagh and Eragon would perhaps not be too comfortable with the feelings that the Dragons would be unknowingly sending to their Riders," and Saphira stated in Eragon that when Saphira or Eragon has a certain feeling towards one person, the other will be effected. This means if Thorn mates with Saphira, Eragon will be feffected. Also, why a purple dragon? Jedi Jake99 Why is Thorn the best dragon ever? ﻿In my opinion Thorn is the best dragon ever. Even after he was forced to grow at a faster rate due to Galbatorix's magic, and being confused anout his body for ages, he managed to go toe to toe with Saphira and chase her to the ground after being severely injured from Eragon's attack.THORN001 20:30, April 6, 2011 (UTC)